Rishi Sunak tells Covid inquiry he does not think cabinet was sidelined over decisions – UK politics live | Politics
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- December 11, 2023
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Sunak tells inquiry he does not think cabinet was sidelined when Covid decisions being taken
Q: Did you think cabinet was being sidelined, as some witnesses have said.
Sunak says this is not his “strong recollection”.
He says he was always able to give the PM advice.
And he says the Covid-O and Covid-S system Boris Johnson set up – two cabinet committees, one dealing with operations, and another with strategy – made sense for Covid decision-making.
He suggests the lack of a Covid taskforce at the start was a problem. But that was introduced.
And he says this is a model that can be deployed again “off the shelf”.
Q: And did you have a view as to how the Cabinet Office was performing was at the start?
Sunak says those first few weeks were very difficult. He says people were doing the best they could. But, once the taskforce was in place, things worked better, he says.
He says there are claims that decisions were not made in the right place. But his “strong recollection” is that they were. The Covid-O and Covid-S system worked well, he says.
Key events
Keith asks about this passage in the Spectator interview:
A cost-benefit calculation – a basic requirement for pretty much every public health intervention – was never made. ‘I wasn’t allowed to talk about the trade-off,’ says Sunak. Ministers were briefed by No. 10 on how to handle questions about the side-effects of lockdown. ‘The script was not to ever acknowledge them. The script was: oh, there’s no trade-off, because doing this for our health is good for the economy.’
And he shows Sunak an extract from a Treasury document shown to senior ministers in April 2020 that expressly referred to a trade-off.
Sunak says he is not sure that was a Treasury document. He says the author had worked for him, but went to work at a different department.
He says, when he spoke about trade-offs in the interview, he was referring to the government’s communications strategy.
He says the communications strategy was not necessarily wrong; there was a case for keeping it simple.
But he says he was making the case for having a wider debate.
Back at the Covid inquiry, Hugo Keith KC asks about a line in a Spectator interview with Rishi Sunak by Fraser Nelson in which Nelson said Sunak tried not to leave a paper trail of what he told Boris Johnson.
Sunak says that was what Nelson said, not what he said himself. And he says that he did write to Johnson about Covid matters.
Q: What should the inquiry make of the suggestion, that you seemed to back, that you had a form of communication with the PM that was not recorded.
Sunak says it is not possible for all conversations between cabinet ministers to be recorded. Civil servants do not follow ministers through the division lobbies, when they might talk. And he says when he was in the garden at Downing Street having lunch with his family, and Johnson was there too, they might have spoken – but a civil servant would not have been there.
He says what mattered was that decisions were recorded
Turning back to Rwanda for a moment, Sam Coates from Sky News has more on what rightwingers are up to this morning. He has posted these on X.
Emergency Rwanda legislation latest
The Tory right is plotting its tactics. It remains unhappy with the bill and wants significant changes.
But
Some are now going to vote FOR second reading because they believe it gives them more leverage at committee stage.
Play loyal for…
— Sam Coates Sky (@SamCoatesSky) December 11, 2023
Emergency Rwanda legislation latest
The Tory right is plotting its tactics. It remains unhappy with the bill and wants significant changes.
But
Some are now going to vote FOR second reading because they believe it gives them more leverage at committee stage.
Play loyal for now, bide time, remain in spotlight
So one calculation puts 20 abstentions on the right
Then have the big fight in the new year.
It is interesting that Cleverly and Pursglove did lots of calls yesterday and Pursglove implied he is open to looking at amendments, according to a source, which some see as a different message to No10
However others on the right fear that if you don’t show your strength – via abstentions – the moment the vote is done tomorrow No10 will say “we’ve won; no change necessary” So the right doesn’t get what it wants
There will be a brief media statement outside Grimmond Room around 12.45pm. In time for for 1pm news slot
Sunak tells inquiry he does not think cabinet was sidelined when Covid decisions being taken
Q: Did you think cabinet was being sidelined, as some witnesses have said.
Sunak says this is not his “strong recollection”.
He says he was always able to give the PM advice.
And he says the Covid-O and Covid-S system Boris Johnson set up – two cabinet committees, one dealing with operations, and another with strategy – made sense for Covid decision-making.
He suggests the lack of a Covid taskforce at the start was a problem. But that was introduced.
And he says this is a model that can be deployed again “off the shelf”.
Q: And did you have a view as to how the Cabinet Office was performing was at the start?
Sunak says those first few weeks were very difficult. He says people were doing the best they could. But, once the taskforce was in place, things worked better, he says.
He says there are claims that decisions were not made in the right place. But his “strong recollection” is that they were. The Covid-O and Covid-S system worked well, he says.
Keith shows Sunak pages from minutes of a meeting he held with Boris Johnson on 15 March 2020 – the day before the “stay at home” order was issued.
Here is the first page
Other pages covered the potential costs of interventions.
Sunak says, as time went on, the quality of the analysis improved considerably.
Q: When there was a key decision to be made, the Treasury kept making arguments to the PM until the last moment.
Sunak says he is not sure that is fair. The PM set up a decision-making process that worked for him, he says.
He says he does not feel he did not get the chance to make arguments to the PM. He says the PM saw him more than he saw his wife during this period, he says.
Sunak says his main responsibility in making Covid policy was to put forward economic arguments
Sunak says the PM had to balance competing interests during Covid.
Only he could do that, because only he saw all the competing arguments made by different cabinet ministers.
Q: Did you see it as your job to promote the Treasury’s concerns about the economy? Or did you take a view as to what the ultimate decision should be?
Sunak says it is difficult to generalise. It depends what the meeting was considering.
It would be “context-specific”, he says.
But his primary responsibility was to feed in information about the economic advice.
If the PM asked him for a general view, he would give it.
Q: And was the PM the ultimate decision maker. A lot of your advice just went to him.
Sunak says the PM was the ultimate decision maker. That is not particularly controversial, he says.
Sunak confirms many of his Covid messages not available to inquiry, but says he was not ‘prolific’ WhatsApp user anyway
Hugo Keith KC, lead counsel for the inquiry, is questioning Sunak.
He starts by saying Sunak, in his witness statement, says he does not use text messages or WhatsApp messages much.
Your phone, you said, doesn’t retain, and nor do you have access to, text messages at all relating to the period of the crisis.
In addition, you said although on occasion you use WhatsApp to communicate around meetings and logistics and so on, you generally were only party to WhatsApp groups that were set up to deal with individual circumstances such as arrangements for calls, meetings and so on and so forth. You don’t now have access to any of the WhatsApps that you did send during the time of the crisis, do you?
Sunak confirms that. He says:
I’ve changed my phone multiple times over the past few years and, as that has happened, the messages have not come across.
As you said, I’m not a prolific user of WhatsApp in the first instance – primarily communication with my private office and obviously anything that was of significance through those conversations or exchanges would have been recorded officially by my civil servants as one would expect.
Sunak starts Covid inquiry evidence saying how sorry he is to people who lost loved ones
Rishi Sunak is giving evidence now.
He starts by saing how sorry he is to all of who lost loves ones, and who suffered during the pandemic.
UPDATE: Sunak said:
I just wanted to start by saying how deeply sorry I am to all of those who lost loved ones, family members, through the pandemic, and also all those who suffered in various different ways throughout the pandemic and as a result of the actions that were taken.
I’ve thought a lot about this over the past couple of years. It’s important that we learn the lessons so that we can be better prepared in the future. It’s in that spirit and with enormous respect for all of those who are affected that I’m here today.
I look forward to giving evidence in the spirit of constructive candour to help the inquiry with its deliberations.
Boris Johnson’s 200-page witness statement to the Covid inquiry was published at the end of last week, after he finished his oral evidence. This is what he said in it about Rishi Sunak’s “eat out to help out” scheme.
Before the Eat Out to Help Out scheme was implemented in August 2020, I had discussions with Rishi about the idea. It was of course impossible to model the impact of the scheme but Rishi and I both thought that there was a sound policy rationale for introducing the scheme. In particular, we were acutely conscious that women had been disproportionately affected by the lockdown and were also disproportionately likely to work in the hospitality sector. We thought it was especially important to do what we could to help the sector – even something novel – and ultimately to safeguard the jobs of women and others in minority groups that had been badly affected by the pandemic. It seemed to me a good idea; it was properly discussed, including with Chris [Whitty] and Patrick [Vallance], and it was not until later that some people started saying, ‘eat out to help the virus’. Of course, we considered the implications for infections, but we thought that this could and would be mitigated by the social distancing requirements still in force and it was very important to balance that against damage to the economy. The scheme was decided on the basis of the balance of risk that we were willing to run during that period.
Cabinet Office minister Esther McVey say she hopes Covid inquiry will consider argument lockdown unnecessary
The Covid inquiry has been getting a lot of criticism in the media in recent days, particularly from newspapers that have been critical of lockdown and supportive of Boris Johnson.
Mostly the government has not commented on how the inquiry is proceeding. On Any Questions at the weekend Esther McVey, the rightwing Cabinet Office minister dubbed “minister for common sense” when she was appointed, did suggest that lockdown had been a mistake. She told the programme:
I’ve been perturbed with the inquiry, that it seems one dimensional at the moment. However, it is an independent inquiry and it has got some time to run.
I do hope it asks the questions about the damage of lockdown, about why was no modelling done, that instead of going into lockdown we could have given advice to the public and how they would have reacted. Actually most of us are have got, I’m going to use the word common sense, and we would have protected the vulnerable, we would have looked after our own, we would have taken care and advice.
McVey also said that, as a backbencher, she has voted against lockdown.
In his interviews this morning Grant Shapps, the defence secretary, defended Rishi Sunak’s record during Covid, claiming that as chancellor Sunak “saved the economy”. He told GB News:
It’s so easy in hindsight to look at all these things with 20/20 vision and say: ‘Ah, if only you had done X at Y moment in time’. The fact of the matter is Rishi Sunak, during Covid, saved millions of jobs in this country through the furlough programme and saved millions of businesses as well, with huge amounts of support – over £400bn.
I think we should actually remember that he was the guy who saved the economy, an economy which – against all the expectations previously – has actually grown this year as a result of the decisions he made not to allow businesses and jobs to go.
Nigel Farage was one of the few prominent rightwingers not being touted as a possible replacement for Rishi Sunak in the papers yesterday. But in their Mail on Sunday story, Glen Owen and Dan Hodges did quote one Tory suggesting he could be given a peerage and appointed home secretary. They said:
One Tory MP said: ‘When Farage comes back he’s going to be all over the airwaves, and he’s going to have us in his sights.’
Another said: ‘Reform are going to kill us, so we have to buy Farage off. The plan is we get him into the Lords, give him some brief like we did with Cameron – maybe even home secretary – then go to the country with the dream team.
Among the Tories were touted as possible Sunak replacements were:
Boris Johnson: In its story, the Mail on Sunday said:
The Mail on Sunday has spoken to multiple Conservative MPs who believe that bringing back the former premier is the only way to save the party from an election wipe-out …
One red qall MP told the MoS: ‘I came out early to say [Johnson] had to go. But I think we have to think outside the box now. Whatever you feel about him, one thing no one can question is his effectiveness as a campaigner. And we need that now, we’re staring at obliteration.
Kemi Badenoch: The Sunday Times said the business and trade secretary is working on a leadership bid. In their story Tim Shipman and Harry Yorke said:
Cabinet colleagues accuse Kemi Badenoch, the trade secretary, of calling another minister to say: “The ship is heading for the rocks. What are we going to do about the captain?” One cabinet minister entertaining thoughts of a leadership run said: “Kemi’s people are already offering jobs. I know that because one of my people was approached.”
A source close to Badenoch told the paper this was untrue.
Dame Priti Patel: The Mail on Sunday floated the idea that the former home secretary could installed as a caretaker prime minister while Johnson arranged to return to the Commons.
Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg: The former Evening Standard editor Emily Sheffield posted this on X.
No surprise that to hear Robert Jenrick is allegedly going around canvassing on his leadership chances. More surprised I was rung yesterday by one Tory to ask if I would join @Jacob_Rees_Mogg & his plan of ditching Sunak & parachuting in a new leader. Pure derangement.
— Emily Sheffield (@emilysheffield) December 9, 2023
Sir Simon Clarke: This is what Alex Wickham and Kitty Donaldson said about the former levelling up secretary in their Bloomberg long read.
Some Tory lawmakers are plotting to oust him. Allies of his predecessor Liz Truss have held talks with colleagues about writing letters of no confidence in Sunak, and some want Simon Clarke, a rightwing backbencher, to challenge him, people familiar with those conversations said. Truss’s spokesman said she’s not plotting, while Clarke told Bloomberg he wants the government to succeed.
There are several other figures in the party also whose leadership ambitions are well known, such as Suella Braverman, the former home secretary.
Farage says ‘never say never’ when asked about possible political comeback, saying Tories ‘in total shambles’
Ever since he gave up leadership of the Brexit party, and let Richard Tice lead it under its new name, Reform UK, Nigel Farage has liked nothing more than teasing the media with hints about a possible comeback. He was at it again this morning, in an interview with ITV’s Good Morning Britain after finishing third in I’m a Celebrity … Get Me Out of Here!
Farage was asked if he wanted to rejoin the Conservative party, which he used to belong to until he left to help set up Ukip in the 1990s. He replied:
I am looking at a Conservative government that is in total shambles, facing tomorrow effectively a confidence vote on an issue that affects every single living human being in our country, namely immigration on a level that never happened even during Tony Blair’s days.
Rishi [Sunak] is a lame duck walking. The Conservative party are headed for total defeat. As to whether I have a future in politics, I have no idea at this moment in time.
But what I would say is never say never. And our country needs, actually, people at the top with some firm guidance as to where we’re going in the future. At the moment we are rudderless and I don’t see a Labour party with strength to get us out of this mess.
‘Are you seeking to use your I’m a Celebrity journey to rejoin the Conservatives and finally get into the UK Parliament?’@edballs questions Nigel Farage over a return to politics after he came third in the I’m a Celebrity jungle 🐛🐞🐜 pic.twitter.com/sLU7RaFmuL
— Good Morning Britain (@GMB) December 11, 2023
Rishi Sunak to face Covid inquiry as Tory MPs meet to consider fate of Rwanda asylum bill
Good morning. Rishi Sunak is in “facing his worst week as prime minister” territory. All prime ministers have weeks that are described by the media as their most difficult yet, and this does not necessarily mean all his lost. Tony Blair was regularly having “worst weeks yet” throughout his entire 10-year premiership. But Sunak really is in a dire state. He is facing near-certain electoral defeat at some point in the next 13 months and now, for the first time since he became leader, there is real speculation about some sort of leadership challenge. In what will be seen by many non-Tories as a sign that the party is flirting with insanity, there has even been talk of a Boris Johnson comeback.
Sunak faces two particular challenges today. First, he is spending most of the day at the Covid inquiry, where he is likely to face questions about his lockdown-sceptical stance as chancellor that led him to be nicknamed “Dr Death” by Prof Dame Angela McLean, who is now the government’s chief scientific adviser (presumably that did not come up at her interview). Sunak will also be asked about his “eat out to help out” scheme. Tom Ambrose has a preview here.
But, more importantly, two groups of Conservative MPs will meet to decide their stance on the new Rwanda deportation bill that is getting its second reading in the Commons. This is the issue that is creating a division in the party deep enough to pose an existential threat to Sunak’s premiership. It seems likely the bill will pass tomorrow, but only because Tory MPs will put off the key fight until report stage after Christmas, when rightwingers will try to amend it in one direction, centrists will try yanking it in the opposite direction, and at that point there might be no bill left the party can unite around.
Even if the bill survives the Commons, it is bound to face challenge in the House of Lords. But perhaps the biggest danger of all for Sunak is that the bill does become law – only for it to fail to totally to “stop the boats” because of ongoing legal challenges (which is what his critics are saying is bound to happen). Rowena Mason has the latest on this here.
Grant Shapps, the defence secretary, was doing a media round this morning. He defended the bill, claiming that it would stop 99.5% of appeals against deportation. He told Times Radio:
I think my simple message is this plan is working, let’s unite behind it and get this further legislation through.
This legislation, by the way, based on Home Office calculations means that of the cases which currently allow people to appeal, that only about one out of 200 cases ultimately would be able to get through that appeal. So this is a very significant, even dramatic move, designed to make the Rwanda route work.
Shapps was referring to Home Office modelling leaked to the Times. In his story Matt Dathan says:
The Home Office believes 99.5% of individual legal challenges submitted by migrants will fail to block their deportation to Rwanda under Rishi Sunak’s emergency law, leaked documents reveal.
Modelling prepared by officials to assess the risk of individual legal challenges scuppering Rishi Sunak’s emergency Rwanda bill predicts nine in ten of all claims would be rejected with no right of appeal within ten days of their arrival in the UK …
The department believes that of the 10% that are granted a hearing, 90% will be struck out at the second stage of the legal process. Only half of the remaining cases that are allowed to progress to an upper tribunal appeal would succeed and lead to the migrant remaining in the UK, according to the Home Office modelling.
It means that if 1,000 migrants were to lodge individual legal challenges against their removal, 900 would be rejected at the first stage and only five migrants would ultimately succeed in blocking their deportation.
Here is the agenda for the day.
10.30am: Rishi Sunak starts giving evidence to the Covid inquiry. He is due to give evidence all day.
11.30am: Downing Street holds a lobby briefing.
Noon: Sir Bill Cash briefs members of the European Research Group and other rightwing Conservative groups in parliament on the findings of the ERG’s legal “star chamber” on the viability of the Rwanda bill.
1.30pm: Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, holds talks with the main parties in Northern Ireland on efforts to resume power sharing at Stormont.
3pm: Sir Matthew Rycroft, permanent secretary at the Home Office, gives evidence to the Commons public accounts committee about the Rwanda deportation policy.
6pm: The Conservative One Nation Caucus meets to consider its stance on the Rwanda bill.
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